The speed at which your company grows often comes down to one thing - Communication! The more influential your communication skills the more people will buy into your ideas. 

In this episode, curator of TEDx Melbourne, Jon Yeo shares his framework for improving the quality of your communication. If you're not familiar with TED it stands for Technology, Entertainment & Design. It's a not for profit organisation that coordinates events globally where people get to come and share an idea worth spreading. 

These talks are limited to just 18mins so people have to know how to concisely communicate their point, a skill that is invaluable to everyone and we explore how to improve your communication skills in this episode. 

Paul: Have you ever listened to a TED talk. If you're not familiar with the concept TED is a not for profit organisation and TED stands for Technology Entertainment and Design. They put on events around the world providing a platform for business owners scientists people of all walks of life to share their concepts their ideas and it is a platform designed for sharing ideas that are worth spreading. It's about communicating what it is we do and helping to shape the world that we live in. If you are not familiar with TED talks you can check them out online. There's literally thousands of talks that are free and accessible. TED talks are delivered in not more than 18 minutes so you have to be able to communicate a concise idea very quickly and clearly communication is a key driver of our success in life. We need to be able to communicate our ideas communicate what it is that we do and how we can help other people. So for this episode I've asked Jon Yeo who is the curator of TED X in Melbourne to join me and share some of the strategies that he teaches about how you communicate an idea really effectively. He's a master communicator himself and delivers programs teaching people how to communicate effectively in their businesses and in their lives. So this is gonna be a conversation that's going to be really meaningful and purposeful for you learning how to communicate what you do more efficiently. So before we dive into our conversation with Jon let's cue the intro

Warick: Welcome to the market his glum podcast the show all about helping you work smarter earn more and accelerate your success and now here's your host Paul McCarthy.

Paul: So welcome to Episode 19 of the marketers club podcast I am your host Paul McCarthy I'm here to help you market your talent so you can earn what you're worth and ultimately make more of a difference in the world. Great to have your company again for another episode and this week we're talking about our ability to communicate what it is we do with others. Now I was reading a book called never split the difference by Chris Voss. Now Chris is a former FBI negotiator and he has delivered a TED talk as well. And he was talking about the fact that communication is a challenging thing not simply because it's about what we say but our inability to really hear all the messages coming back. It tells a great story about a situation where he was negotiating a hostage negotiation getting a bad guy out of a bank who'd got trapped with some staff when he was trying to rob the bank. And he explains that when negotiators are working they always negotiate in pairs where one negotiate is doing all the communication and talking with the bad guy. But he always has a wingman who's listening with him as well. And the reason is he explains that human beings have the capacity to take on about 400 to 600 pieces of information in a minute. But the reality is that in any conversation we're usually getting about fifteen hundred pieces of information coming at us. So in reality we only hear about one third of what it is that's being said to us. So the same is true for the people we're communicating with. Often we think we're being really clear but they are not hearing everything. No in Chris's story explains that he was in the middle of the negotiation when his wingman slipped him a piece of paper and said ask him if he's ready to come out. So trusting in his wingman he simply asked the the bad guy. Would you like to come out and the guy said Look I just don't know how to make that happen. Which of course is him saying yes please get me out of here. I don't want to die. So the thing here is that Chris didn't hear that he was busily trying to negotiate the release of the hostages and then the whole negotiation swung around and he started to focus on getting the bad guy out of the bank safely so that I could end the siege. But it's because he didn't hear that message because he was so busy talking and focusing on what he was trying to achieve. So this is the key to our communication understanding that everything we say isn't what's heard. And so how do we become more efficient communicators. So to help us learn how to communicate more effectively I've asked Jon Yeo who is the curator of TED X Melbourne to join me for this week's episode. Jon is a speaker but he has worked with hundreds of speakers helping them to prepare their TED talks and he works and runs a company that teaches people the art of communication and how to become better communicators in every aspect of their lives. I couldn't think of anyone better to join us and help us to become clearer better communicators of what it is we do not want to keep you waiting any longer. Let's dive into my chat with John Yeo.

Paul: Hey Jon welcome to the market of club podcast. Great to have you on the show.

Jon: Thanks Paul. Thanks for inviting me.

Paul: Looking forward to our conversation today. But before we dive into what we want to chat about in terms of how we can really become much more influential communicators and use conversations to really drive the direction of where we want to influence and move people let's talk a little bit about Jon Yeo and tell us a little bit of your story for people who don't know you maybe haven't met you don't know you as the curator of the Ted x in Melbourne and so many other things that you do so it just gives you thumbnail of your background.

Jon: Sure. Look at as you just mentioned I'm mostly known for being the licensee and curator of the Ted x Melbourne so I select prepare and develop the ideas that come onto the tech stage around innovation creativity I'm sure everyones heard of TED but my background really is the easiest way to describe is really around. How do you make an effective impact. How do you say the right thing at the right time to the right person in the right way and it kind of began by accident in the 90s. I was in charge as an engineer Y2K the millennium bug for anyone who's old enough to remember and one of the things that didn't happen back then was engineers never spoke with CEOs. So the only opportunity I got to speak to a CEO was a card or conversation so I got really good at saying you know short soundbites impactful conversation in an engaging way. And so over that time developed a little bit of a framework to help people communicate those things. It evolved into the work that it did with Ted x and today is pretty much my full time job helping executives achieve that. I mean how do you make sure you engage. How you make sure you connect and how do you do it in a meaningful way that people see the context and the relevance of the work that they produce.

Paul: It's easy to say why you're so busy doing that work because it's such import work at all levels. And obviously our businesses really live and die by the power of our communication and as someone who spends most of my time working with small business owners to improve the quality of their conversation particularly to attract customers into their world. But I was keen to have a conversation with you I know you're doing great work in this space helping people to build brand stories teaching people how to use speaking as a as a more efficient tool but not simply speaking from the stage but really conversations at any level so whether we're speaking with our team internally in our business whether we're talking to our suppliers whether we're trying to attract customers we need to improve the quality of that communication so as you say it's more engaging and more effective for us so, for a small business out there that are the primary listeners to this show. What's the. Where do we start in terms of thinking about how we can begin to improve the quality of the conversations that we're having.

Jon: Yeah look I think the biggest challenge I have with a lot of speakers and communicators and with that on the stage or in the boardroom is really having a lot of clarity. It is not clear in your head it will be never clear in your listeners head. And so what we have this experience is people not doing what we expect and then we're blaming the listener for not doing the job and not to take away. Some people just don't pull their socks up. But the reality is that if you can connect we can engage. If you can inspire and create proper context then the likelihood of them doing it wrong is significantly less. And so our ability to influence by having clear thought is a strong part to that. And so in order to do that it's really that thinking about what you need to say and how you might need to make that engaging and so very very few people do that very most people just sort of have something in their head and then they say it and expect someone to listen. And the challenge with that is that individuals have a unique knowledge experience and background and just because it's clear in your head or you think it's clear in your head because of their background they might not understand that.

Paul: So you want to you happy to walk us through then the the five perspectives of what causes us the distraction and therefore diminishes the quality of the communication we're having.

Jon: Sure. So look you don't have to go to in order but I'm gonna start from the top just because it does make logical sense and the main one well not the main one the first one I want to speak about is environment and most people don't think about the environment that they're thinking sitting in. So environment is all things to do with anything that impacts your business or your conversation that you have zero control over. So in a business sense it might be what's the market doing. What direction is it going. Is it expanding or contracting by how much. What size is it. But even industry areas might influence people's perception of your work. So if you're in the banking industry because there's a royal commission going on a lot of people automatically assuming that banking is not a great field. Now there's noble people doing great work but the industry as a whole as a whole is being impacted. So environment can really impact you know what people think of your organisation or you or your brand before you even walk in the room. And I find that great brands do just two distinctive things in their environment. They have a strong position and they have that create disproportionate amount of attention. So I think of Elon Musk in his tweets. Now you might think he's crazy but he's got a business that's less than 10 years old and it's got the largest automotive cap in the world. So regardless of what he does he makes things happen because able to keep people's attention he's able to keep people focused on that bigger picture. So that's environment.

Paul: So I mean over the years working with lots of entrepreneurs and and also sales professionals we talk about the environment in terms of a salesperson for example being aware that a lot of people get on guard when somebody is selling them something so they needed to be mindful of the preconceptions that people might have as they're managing that the conversations are not assuming that you start talking where you are you need to start the conversation where your buyer is. Is that the sort of thing you're thinking about when we talk about an environment.

Jon: Absolutely one of my favorite examples is you know if something happens in the news that that morning that impacts your ability to communicate. You've got to mention that you've got to bring it up. So that's exactly what I mean.

Paul: Beautiful right so environments our first thing. Paying greater attention to if we're going to have more impactful communication what's the next part of the framework the next one is organisation which is what people think about you or your brand.

Jon: So when I mentioned brands like Disney or or Tesla or Apple. People have visceral responses for these brands but you think about if you can think of any competitor in that brand I challenge you to do that. It's not that simple. And so these brands are able to distinguish themselves. It's partly because they've got great products and service. It's partly how they cultivate the relationship and marketing is that opportunity to shape the environment that surrounds our potential clients or potential listeners so that we do have a positive influence again before we even walk in the room.

Paul: In terms of a small business context to organisation what sort of things do we need to be mindful of when where we're making sure that we are seen to be organised. I guess it sounds a little bit to me like you're talking about be on brand these companies that you've just mentioned these large companies. I mean they're on brand they stay on brand they don't wander off the reservation and start diving into things that are unrelated so you know very clearly in your mind what they are what they stand for is. So from a small business context how does that apply.

Jon: Yeah. And that is exactly what I'm talking about. It's about what does that organise an organisation believed in stand for. What does it represent. What does its reputation does it have a distinction. You know there's an accounting firm that that called Blue Rock. Now one of the things that's interesting about blue. I mean accounting in general as an industry as a sector is not seen as the sexiest industry to be in and it's not seen as doing the most remarkable work but you go into the blue room offices you know you've walked into the blue rock offices you know it's energetic it's vibrant it's colourful it's dynamic everyone that walks past literally looks you in the eye nods and says Hello. Everyone's excited to see everyone's engaged with not only their work but with each other even people they've not met. And you get this sense of belonging engagement excitement before you even had the meeting. And so they're able to cultivate this environment where people are having these feel good experiences over and above the technical services they provide. And so a great organisation is and will cultivate that and becomes known for that that total you know the vibe and energy that a business gives off what they represent and I'm often talking to small business owners to be when we think about marketing and what is marketing and I to say you know everything's marketing because it's having an impact shaping the way someone feels and thinks about you and your brand. So if you're not going out maybe it's what you're wearing it's might be the car you're driving if they're saying that all of those things have a compounding impact on the decision making of somebody about what they think.

Paul: That total you know the vibe and energy that a business gives off what they represent and I'm often talking to small business owners to be when we think about marketing and what is marketing and I to say you know everything's marketing because it's having an impact shaping the way someone feels and thinks about you and your brand. So if you're going out maybe it's what you're wearing it's might be the car you're driving if they're saying that all of those things have a compounding impact on the decision making of somebody about what they think. And often we can be endeavouring to cast out a particular type of the vision of our business but that's not the reality that people see, their perception is quite different. And we need to be alert to that. So getting organised making sure that we're on brand sounds like it's a critically important part of that whether you're at the big end of the market or the small.

Jon: When we think about it humans want to belong and they want to belong to a group that's like them that they can relate to. You know if you would for instance Paul said you know I'm a marketing expert I can I can escalate your brand position and escalate your sales beyond what you can imagine and you turn up at the office with a you know in a smoking old Toyota from the 80s that looks like I'd seen better days people make perceptions around that. And I know that's an extreme example but you know everything. All these small details add up and and nurture the idea of I want to be like that. I see myself as that I can relate to that. And so brands give a sense of place and that's that's why brands like Apple and Tesla do that people feel that they belong to those organisations and Europe does that with their clients to.

00:16:24:06 - 00:17:08:11
Paul: I think that's a really important part for small business owners to think about that that sense of community and belonging that they are working to create around their brand and that people feel part of that. I mean for us the marketers club it is it's a community it's a it's entrepreneurs working together to share insights and help each other. And that's part of being part of the community. It's almost part of the responsibility when you come in is that you you have to be generous of spirit in terms of that you must be caring about helping other entrepreneurs not just simply self-serving that that is part of the environment that that we strive to build. So okay we've got environment we've got organisation. What's the next part of the framework Jon.

Jon: The next the next better framework is the individual themselves. You know what's their reputation. What's their distinctive elements. Do they think the way that we want expect them to think. Do we relate to them in a meaningful way. This is what a cell is actually made. So. And the one thing that I guess we really need to be focus on at the individual level is how we continually adding value because if we're not giving to the conversation we're more often taking. And so at the individual level that's where the personal trust report credibility is made or broken because that person is not consistent in the way people expect them to be around the interaction that you're having. So if you're happy one day and angry the next day or you don't consistently deliver a good experience or you don't resonate with that individual because you don't know countermanded them or telling them rather than relating to them then they all impact your ability to create that positive impression. And you know that that that impression is like a seed it grows. So every small thing adds up and every moment counts.

Paul: So in the work you do. Can you give us some examples of of the I guess the state that some people can be in and how that can change or what they can do to alter how they're being perceived in that space.

Jon: Sure. Look this is where we kind of balance in a little bit of your own state and state management and also awareness of the state estate state management of the listener that you're listening to. So if you're having an interaction with someone a conversation let's say and they're getting increasingly excited what are you doing. What are you saying. What's important to you and what do you need to know so that you can continue to have those conversations to cultivate that excitement and energy that motivation that connection. If the conversation is going the other way what do you need to do in order to shift that state so and that state might be in you. I'm a bit tired I'm a bit distracted something's going on or it might be something in them. They're kids in hospital and they're distracted or they love where you're going but they don't quite see what you're trying to achieve. Or they love what you want to do and they want to go to the next step. What do you need to know or notice in order to continue that conversation to move towards a more positive outcome a more positive experience even when you leave the meeting was there a sense of positivity from that interaction. And if not why not.

Paul: And I think that's a very important part of the selling process is paying very careful attention to the responses and what what feeling the person that you're working with selling to is having as well so you have to be a bit more intuitive. That's one of the hardest parts of teaching people how to sell is the more intuitive components of it that it's not as easy as just to follow a bouncing ball. You have to be in the moment. You have to be there really paying attention.

Jon: Yeah presence is a real big part of it. Absolutely and that's exactly to your point. That's exactly it. And and being mindful that it's not really about what you have to say but what experience do you want to create. And so being less hard about your pitch and more interested in solving this problem.

Paul: And I think that's again you know as you said you know the individual part is the cell component of the communication. And when I'm talking to entrepreneurs about selling themselves that let's say I teach people how to market what they do ultimately that has to eventuate into a sale so that we get the money in the bank. And I think that if we understand that we're all in the business of selling whether we're selling a product or whether selling an idea whether we're trying to get people on board with something that doesn't have to be a physical sale that where money is involved. But we have to understand that it's an energy transfer and that we need to bring energy to it and be able to get people excited but that doesn't mean sort of pitching at them it means being energised about the possibility for them rather than doing something to them.

Jon: Yeah exactly. And people buy for all sorts of reasons they might actually need the product or service but they may actually want the result that the product or service. So you know you might provide a certain service but they don't want the service they want that service because it makes them look good or feel good or allow them achieve certain organisational objective business objective. And so you know anyone could technically provide that product or service. You've just gotta be mindful. How do they distinguish so that if you did choose

Paul: And it sounds to me that we're talking about really a process which again I would be teaching people of building rapport and understanding the pain the problem that the person has before we ever move into a discussion about a solution mode that we are carefully understanding the pinpointing what matters to that person rather than just going hey I've got a bunch of really cool things to talk to you about. Yeah exactly. All right. So we've got environment we've got organisation we've got the individual what's the next part of your framework.

Jon: The next one is actually the most important is your idea or your message at this point. This is where you need to position what you're going to sell in the appropriate way. The challenge is that if people don't trust you as an individual it doesn't matter what your message is if they don't trust your organisation. It doesn't matter what your message is and if they don't trust your industry like in banking it's harder for them to believe your message. And a lot of people forget those three perspectives above that. And so we need to address all of those not necessarily in that order. But we need to address them during the conversation so that there's no in their mind elephant in the room and this might be done with a simple sentence but it needs to be addressed because if there's a gap is doubt and it is doubt there's always delay confusion or straight out no. And we've got to avoid that.

Paul: Are we talking about. Sometimes things like potential sales objections that maybe come up and they could. As you say it come up because of a concern about an industry for example that people within this industry we know that there's been some shysters certainly in my field it's something that I've always had to be aware of because I think people operating under the banner of a business coach there have been plenty of them that really have done a big disservice to the field because they had little or no business qualifications they're reading a set of manuals and teaching people principles that they don't understand or have never lived. So I think there's a lot of people have been bitten by somebody charging them lots of money with no expertise. So those sorts of things that we're talking about.

Jon: Yeah look absolutely. Objections is absolutely a big part of it. The other part is knowing what especially at the environmental level what's distracting them. You know I was working with with with someone in banking about his. He's literally been in this industry for 25 years was about to do a talk about all the great things that he did because he's in the CSR space that the consumer responsibility and was talking about all the things that the bank did there and they've done some great work. Know it's no no no question they're doing some great work. But two weeks before he went on stage for instance the royal commission was announced. So you know automatically he had things to counteract before he even opened his mouth and said things like that might happen you might walk into a room and they seem distracted and you might not know what it is but it might be I don't know that kid just went into hospital. Or they don't know what the problem is or they just got dealt some bad news before they entered the meeting. And so we've got to be at a monitor the environment because that that impacts their ability to concentrate on what we're going to talk about and then even when we do talk about it it's not just about selling a feature on benefit it's about contextualising the value you create to help them achieve that goal.

Paul: I remember speaking to a few American speaker buddies who had presentations booked the day after 9/11 and and having to walk into a room and speak and that there's just no way you can pretend that that event didn't happen. So you have to deal with it. You have to have to come you know have that at the forefront of it because it's on everybody's mind and no one's thinking about many other things. After a moment like that so there are significant but there's also smaller as you point out environmental issues industry issues challenges and you can't just pretend that those things aren't there because they are there in the mind of your listener.

Jon: Yeah and to no disrespect to any organisation we don't know also don't over depend on believing in your own marketing like a lot people say. Content is king. But I would argue that you know if you've got nothing to say you shouldn't be saying it in the first place. So you might have lots of content but if no one cares about it or it's not relevant or it's not useful that's just noise. So we've got it we've got to help people understand that you're not the noise that you're the person adding the value that you're the person distinguishing yourselves because you actually have something to say.

Paul: So four parts of a five part framework Environment Organisation the individual and the idea or message thoughts.

Jon: The final piece of the puzzle the last one is the most important and the one that often forgotten which is the audience and I'm not saying it in terms of marketing you know the avatar in the position and I'm not talking about that stuff I'm talking about what is going to cause them to disproportionately act in your favour what is going to cause that fervent excitement. And my favourite my favourite example is my my brother actually three years ago he put a thousand dollars down on a product he hadn't seen without knowing whether they're going to build the infrastructure in his town to support it because that's how much he believed in the Tesla Model 3 electric car. He's big into sustainability. Now. First of all I don't know anyone who put a thousand dollars three years in advance on a product we haven't seen. That's the first thing. The other part was that if you wanted to be one of the first thousand owners you could but you had to pay up front. Now that car in the U.S. is selling for about forty five thousand US. But the upfront fee if you want to be first thousand owners is $250,000 dollars. And it sold out in in other words a thousand people put five times the retail price down three years in advance without knowing what the product looked like without knowing where they're going to build electric infrastructure in a town because that's how much they believe in the Tesla Model 3 Now that is extraordinary loyalty. You know I was walking down the street the other day there was kids kind of in sleeping bags lined up on the street and I honestly thought they were homeless. And then then I noticed that they were kind dressed a bit too nice and they had the hats on sideways and I was going Oh this has been interesting. So I went up to one of them and I said you know what are you doing. He goes Oh yeah. There's some new air Jordan's coming out in a couple of days and we wanted to be you Yeah we wanted to be first in line. I said Well it's interesting I said you know do you know who Michael Jordan is. And he said no. And I thought it was fascinating that someone would line up for a pair of shoes of a person they'd never heard of because they wanted to be first. And so what is going to cause that group to literally bang on the door and be first to your product or service without even knowing what it is. And I'm not saying this is easy but it's definitely doable.

Paul: It's possible so what do you think the some of the factors behind driving that desire to do that. What are the things that that organisation or brand are doing well to make that sort of visceral reaction take place.

Jon: Yeah. Look I think I think there's lots of things that they cultivate the relationship extremely well. They're an ambiguous and unforgiving about what they believe. And a great example Nike just released their sales on Wall Street and apparently it blew Wall Street out of the water. Now Wall Street were. And even the president the United States of America was bagging Nike because they were supporting an NFL program where black Africans were taking a knee during the national and they weren't put a hands on their hearts and taking their hats off. And a lot of people were saying that being un-American. But Nike said no this is about what you believe and what's important you should always believe in that. They have literally expanded in almost every category that they're in because of because they they help people believe in what they believe to the point where they've even got an oversized line now because they realise that they were under serving that group. What is going to cause them to fervently believe in what you believe. And what do you provide that allows them to attach literally to it in a way that says this is mine. I believe in this. This represents me. And if you think of an apple you think about Tesla.

Paul: And I think one of the components I talk to small business owners about is I think it starts with being brave enough to really step into who you are and stand for that rather than being vanilla and trying to appeal to everybody. It's it's actually being willing to slice out a piece of the market is that this is who we are for. This is what we stand for. This is the way we do it. And and if you don't like that that's fine but you I don't join us. But that's I think you know in the pursuit of just trying to win a sale. A lot of business owners small business owners particularly watered down there. Themselves and their brand so that they think that they will appeal to the greater majority of people and I always find that to be counterproductive to the growth of a small business. I think it's much more about stepping into who you are and and projecting that out and then attracting an audience around that conversation is usually much more effective.

Jon: Totally totally. And you know coming back to I don't know you've been asking me what a small business examples and the challenge I have is all the small businesses that I know that do this really well don't stay small very long. They literally like what one did three years. They're like these big organisations in Canava. I was using you know when no one had heard of it. Ninety nine zines. I was using when no one heard of it. There's a whole bunch of products that I now use. They go oh you're on that bandwagon now. No. I've been using it for a long time.

Paul: So again it's it's tapping into the points that you've been making so beautifully. It's your framework in terms of understanding all of these elements that make them effective in their communication. I guess as we're coming up on time one of the other elements that maybe get your perspective on that I know many of the larger brands are participating in heavily these days and I think it's something that smaller brands need to pay attention to is the gamification that they're using to really connect with their audience to provide the opportunity for the community to communicate to share. I mean Nikes you know a running app as you know helped really move the product significantly with the people were not getting their badges and the awards and how many miles they've run on and so forth so what are you seeing I guess in terms of some of the brands out there and the way that they're using gamification to help communicate more efficiently with their audiences.

Jon: Great question Look. Great brands create great communities. Simple as that. These buyers are not isolated when they buy they're part of a bigger thing. So that Nike was a perfect example. Apple Store is a classic example. Any of these brands that cultivate. I mean if every major website is a community LinkedIn Facebook WhatsApp they're all communities they're all connected communities. They just happen to be tools that do this or that. We've got a global tribe. This whole global village thing that used to be sort of a cliche is really the real deal. People want to be something be something bigger but they want to be connected locally at a human level. Brands that cultivate and build that by default naturally get successful pretty quickly.

Paul: Well I think you're you know you've hit the nail on the head and and that is one of the reasons I wanted to have a chat to you John I think you are a thought leader in this space and you're helping lots of people to learn how to communicate more efficiently more effectively more powerfully. And again you know whether that's in a boardroom whether that's to a customer or in a sales meeting whether that's on a stage to hundreds or thousands of people these principles hold true. And as you say if we listen and pay attention to the way we're doing these things in our small business might be small for very long. We'll be able to grow rapidly if we serve the market this way.

Jon: Yeah absolutely.

Paul: So it's been a pleasure chatting to you might now know that people might want to learn more about you if they want to be connected and find out about the TED talks that you ran or programs that you offer. What's the what's the best way for people to follow or communicate with you.

Jon: Sure. So anything Ted or Ted x related is just tedxmelbourne.com T E D X Melbourne.com So that's probably the easiest way to if you get on that newsletter. Well it's not really a newsletter because we don't really send newsletters if you get on that mail list. You get the event announcements so that's probably the best way from a TED point of view in terms of my work. Flick me note on LinkedIn I'd much rather have meaningful conversations than lots of connections because it's the interaction and engagement that I think where the value was added not the fact that I have a brand or logo website. I don't really have a website. So I don't recommend that as a strategy but I've just been too busy.

Paul: Bucking the trend there.

Jon: Yeah yeah. I promise I'll fix it this year. But the reality is because I focused on doing the things I've been talking to you about it hasn't been a requirement and go where your clients.

Paul: Well I think a lot of the things you have been talking about I mean they common sense but there you can be unconventional if you like because you are just focusing in on what a market needs or what people need from you. And people don't need a website from you. They once they found you then they need you to help them do what you're helping them do. So it's a good reminder to everybody that we sometimes can get caught up in building the collateral and not paying attention to the audience and what they are truly asking for.

Jon: Yeah exactly. I mean it's not that complicated. If you can codify something if you can make sense of it in a regular way and then you are dogmatic about being consistent to that then the value is created because you can leverage the scale and consistency of that. You know my works now being considered for MBA programs is core content. You know there's a whole bunch of things that can happen. You don't expect if you stay vigilant to your to your system and stay vigilant to what you believe. This is no different.

Paul: And this is the key holding true getting a really clear picture of what you stand for what you're about and holding true to that and really putting that out into the world and and building meaningful conversations around that I think is a wonderful idea for people to follow through. So listen mate a great chatting with you as always. And thank you for taking some time out of what I know is a busy schedule to share some of your wisdom with our listeners.

Jon: Thanks Paul. Thanks for inviting me.

Paul: So how influential are you as a communicator. I know it's something that I'm always paying attention to how can I improve my communication skills how can I communicate more clearly what it is that I want to say so that I can help more people to get that message through more clearly and make sure that they understand what it is and how they can use those ideas to advance their business. It's certainly incumbent on all of us to continually work at becoming better at communicating what it is that we need to say so that people understand it with great ease and are able to apply and implement those thoughts and ideas into their lives. Jon's given us a great framework to work on and think about things like the environment that we're in when we're delivering information. Think about what might have happened to somebody in terms of their their state prior to hearing the information you're giving them and then just making sure that we're on brand that we're in alignment that we're doing things that are helping to build trust and connection with the person the recipient of the information so that we can really build a meaningful conversation. And of course always placing the audience at the centre of what it is that you're doing thinking very carefully about who you're talking to and so therefore what sort of communications are going to be required to influence them to move in the direction that you want them to go. So I hope that you got as much value out of this conversation as I did I certainly was taking lots of notes and it's caused me to stop and think about how well I do communicate with other people and what I can do to get better at that. And I hope that you will get busy doing the same and continue to improve your ability to communicate what it is that you do to others. So thanks again for joining me for this week's episode. I'll be back next week with another episode of the marketers club podcast. But until then I wish you all the very very best of luck with your businesses. But much more importantly with your lives. Take care. Bye for now.