One of the great challenges in business is knowing when it's time to hire someone. Whether you're hiring your first employee or adding someone to your team, the hiring process can be a tricky one. You need to have thought through exactly what skills you need to help you accelerate your growth. 

In this episode I'm joined by Mark Bloodworth. Mark has helped recruit and develop thousands of people for both large and small companies. In this session he provides you with a step-by-step framework to follow to dramatically improve your chance of finding the right person to join your team and help grow your business.

00:00:00:17 - 00:02:17:16

Paul: I think it's fair to say that one of my most exciting days as a musician was the day that we got ourselves a roadie. It was really great to have somebody there that was helping us to lug the equipment to set up before a gig and pack up afterwards. It really made you feel like a real musician when you were there focused on the art just being the performer that you wanted to be. You know the truth is when you start off as a musician you spend an awful lot of your time doing the grunt work doing a lot of the moving of equipment packing up filling the van driving around and only a small percentage of your time actually doing the thing that you love the most. I think the same is true of business and the reality is we can't remain roadies to our businesses forever. Eventually we're going to need to engage the help of other people to help us grow our business. So this week's episode is all about that moment in time. If you're at that point where it's time to think about handing off some of the things you do to somebody else to allow you to focus on the things that matter most. Maybe now is the time that you're ready to think about hiring your first employee or thinking about hiring another employee to help you grow your business. So whatever phase you're at in business if you're ready to stop being the roadie and start getting somebody else to help you do some of the heavy lifting of your business so you can concentrate on your true moneymaking activity. Then this episode is going to be for you. My guest is Mark Bloodworth a man I've known for a very long time he's a dear friend. He is a tremendous leader of people. He's such an enthusiastic man but he has been a big part of my life and being big guide in my life as well. And it was a great privilege for me to have him on the on the call on the show and to really share some insights with you about the work that he does. He really helps companies to grow great people and as part of his business he helps them recruit superstar staff and he shares with you in this episode some great questions to start asking and some strategies and plans about how you go about finding that right employee for your business. So super keen to dive into this episode with you. It's packed with great information I know you're going to love it so let's get to my conversation with Mark Bloodworth.

00:02:30:03 - 00:02:49:00

Welcome to the marketers club podcast. The show all about helping you work smarter earn more and accelerate your success. And now here's your host Paul McCarthy.

00:02:49:02 - 00:04:16:04

Paul: So welcome to Episode 14 of the marketers club podcast I am your host Paul McCarthy and I'm here to help you market your talent so you can earn what you're worth and ultimately make more of a difference in the world. Welcome back. Great to have you here. For another episode of the show and really keen to have a conversation with you about an area that I've had so many conversations with entrepreneurs over the years is about staff often many of the people in my mastermind programs and programs that I've worked in have spoken to me about the challenges of getting staff finding great people or getting the best out of the staff that they've got. So I don't know anyone better to talk to about this than my guest today Mark Bloodworth. He is the founder of lifeblood performance and he's been helping people to improve the quality of their relationships with their staff and hire superstars for over a decade. He is a champion at doing it and a remarkable man. So he's got some great advice for you to really start thinking about when is the right time to hire a person. Who are you really looking for and understanding how to go through the process of advertising to get that right person how to interview them and ensure that you onboard them correctly so this episode is packed with information to help you get that superstar employee in your business and help you take your business to a whole nother level of performance. So I really came to dive in. So let's get to it.

00:04:16:15 - 00:04:19:29

Paul: So welcome to the marketers club podcast Mark. Great to have you on the line.

00:04:20:14 - 00:04:21:24

Mark: Thanks so much Paul. Pleased to be here.

00:04:21:26 - 00:04:58:27

Paul: Keen to chat about recruitment because I think it is an area that really causes quite a lot of constellation for many small business owners when to recruit the right person to recruit. How do I know if they're right. How do I get the most out of so many elements to it. So I mean you've helped recruit hundreds maybe thousands of people by now to all sorts of roles so from your expert vantage point what's the first steps that we need to be paying attention to in terms of our recruitment philosophies and starting to think about trying to bring somebody into our team to help us grow our business.

00:04:59:08 - 00:05:04:07

Mark: So you referring to perhaps the beginning point is know when you recruit someone for that place to start.

00:05:05:06 - 00:05:08:08

Paul: I mean if I jump into. Yeah let's let's start there.

00:05:08:20 - 00:07:13:25

Mark: I think it's an awesome awesome place to start because not surprisingly some of the assignments I've worked on with clients I haven't thought this stage through adequately we get halfway through the process and then the realisation is just do we really need this person or is this the right person. So by that stage a lot of time has been invested. And as we'll talk about a bit during this call I suspect sometimes potential damage can be done to the organisation's brand so I think it's a really essential platform to say well you know when is the right time to recruit and I guess it as a gut feeling if you're a small business if you're a larger business they're kind of already set up with structure and frameworks and all the rest of it someone leaves there for that role is really busy that's adding value which I think very this PD and all these other things that are around to describe it. They just they need to replace that person. It's pretty clear cut but when the small and midsize organisation sometimes is not as apparent because it might be a new hire they might not be that precedent set that says I can let persons out. We just got to put another round pick in that round hole. So I think for me the guide is if you're a smaller business. And you're just getting sucked your time gets sucked into too many technical things and too many hands on things when and you're denying the business of your expertise on a more strategic or ride making sort of efforts bringing revenue bringing improvements into the business. I think that's a that's a that's a good key indicator that it's time to look at where can I add some talent to actually offload some of this important stuff has to be done that allows me to elevate back where I can add more days in the business so that's that's the cornerstone of it. Paul I think the other angle for people is that if they're looking at growing and developing their business it might be that the question that goes off with them is well when's the right time and is it. Is it now where by myself or with the team I have we need another perspective we need to start thinking about adding some diversity of thinking diversity of ideas diversity of skills diversity of experience into this team to take us to another level.

00:07:13:30 - 00:07:59:06

Paul: I think sometimes we form habits as small business owners of taking on everything we fall into traps of saying things like I know no one can do it as well as me. And so we hold on to things for too long and as you pointed out I mean we've got to keep paying attention to the critical things that we do particularly well in our business that would help the business grow. And if we're not spending enough time in what we call our primary moneymakers then it might be time to hire someone to help you. Well so let's assume arrived at that point that I know I need somebody in my business to take it to the next level to allow me to stay focused on the things that are going to matter most. So where do I start. What's the first step to working out who I need and how to go about recruiting them.

00:07:59:16 - 00:10:02:17

Mark: Probably two first steps we'll start with just getting prepared. So I think this is a good time to say well let's start to understand what's the role. Because as business owners we're often a little bit vague about it because it could be quite broad and we're used to dealing with things on a broad basis ourselves. But if you're going to enter the job market the employee is not going to have the same perspective as you as a business owner. So they will need to identify with this opportunity as a role. And it sounds frustrating sometimes particularly your first hire second hires yet. We need it. We need someone like me across everything. I get that. But if you get to play in the job market everyone else will be playing by that and you need to compete similarly. So it's about getting to understand what did that role look like in the marketplace. What's it called. Where does it fit. What's its purpose. What are the key things. It's endeavoring to get and do as good a job. This is basically called the position description but as thorough as you can do there. That's an awesome start because it gives you the thinking process Paul to go through to help you validate whether it's a real need or not. And I've worked with clients before that we've started doing this. You know what that's not where the value is going to be at it's what we would rather see and what we might need. Is this a skill set that could deliver those outcomes that will deliver this benefit to the business so that's a really critical part is to understand from the least a basic perspective of what the role is its functions purpose and all that sort of stuff and create or get someone to help you create a really good in-depth position description. And I'm not talking about the job ad. I'm talking about position description that has who the role interacts with what are the measurable is one of the KPI is one of the developing opportunities what are the stakeholder involvements. Who does this role interact with. How do you get to know when it's succeeding and where it's not and what development's going to do to watch you know get as good a clearer picture around that and as we said that will either convince you that yes this is exactly what we need and it also then opens up the door to connect with the language that the job seeker is going to identify with. So that's that's where we're pretty at essential place start I reckon Paul.

00:10:02:28 - 00:10:46:08

Paul: There's some work to be done to get this right. Clearly to as you just articulated there are so many components to think about and I know that through conversations we've had over the past that one of the big errors that people make when they start their recruitment process is they are trying to hire Superman or Superwoman someone who has you know this array of skills that are too broad too big. So is there a way of I mean as you said through conversation people narrow down to start realizing what it is that they really want to do are there some key questions or thoughts that we need to have to help us narrow that focus to understand we're not going to get somebody who can do everything.

00:10:46:12 - 00:11:47:27

Mark: The deeper you go in that process just as we have outlined there Paul the better served your beauty. The other way of looking at it is without trying to sound too corporate earning is sketching out the organization chart for the want of a better term but the way the roles fit into the business might be a good way to start that okay because then as you say quite rightly if you're trying to hire a Superman that they're going to be across everything you report to everyone and be everybody you'll probably identify pretty quickly that that person won't exist or if they do they won't have enough time to focus on the key elements. So I think it's about drilling down quite deep but also having that perspective view of okay where is this person not a fit is if you're a reasonable size organization is it going to be a senior role there's going to report directly to the business owner or is it going to be more technical role to the frontline and interact with this pool of people. So getting that picture of where that job fits in. And again re reemphasizing What's the key purpose of this role what are the things that are going to need to come out of it to demonstrate it's adding value for what it's gonna cost me to be running this this role.

00:11:48:10 - 00:12:09:17

Paul: All right so if we've got clear on that and we understand the role and how we're going to measure it success we have to go and start promoting that we want somebody into our business so what's the keys to successfully promoting a job to recruit and create an ad that's going to draw somebody in to your business.

00:12:09:24 - 00:14:30:21

Mark: The key thing here Paul is the mindset that I would like to encourage business owners to be focusing on is how do I attract. It's not just the vehicle because there's a lot of portals and there's a lot of processes and different platforms you can use to try and put in and attract people. The thing that I want to encourage people to do before they get to that stage is just to be aware of what does their brand say about their organization in the marketplace. Okay. And that at the end of the day particularly now when information is so transfer transparent because they to you as a person or as a business leader or as a business owner and the brand of your business will be able to be research by any person that is attracted to your ad or your network reach out or whatever other strategy using. So I think a little bit of time here being prepared to say okay what does my brand say about me. And I'll give you an example of where I can go pear shaped before you put that up. I've known that in the past organizations where the hiring manager perhaps hasn't been paying attention to his or her personal branding all right. And candidates that I'm trying to recruit in the business research this person and perhaps let society on LinkedIn or any other. That's probably the most prevalent professional network and see that that person's hasn't updated their profile. So not only do they not even work at the company that I'm trying to engage in to hire for or hire them into but they're on their on their public profile. It's it's demonstrating they're active actively looking seeking new opportunities. So that person went cold went cold. It doesn't matter how good a job you do on your ads and all the rest of it if you haven't paid enough attention to what's my brand saying about me it could be as simple as that. So if you have a LinkedIn profile make sure it's up to date make sure it's connected to a company page you have make sure your websites vibe button up and about and doing well and saying what it is if you're on Glassdoor check it out see what people are saying about you you know that's the thing I think has is often neglected in the rush to get to the talent. But if you can work on this step first before the rush to get to the talent when you find the right talent they're not going to be put off you're going to lose them. So I think that's that's a you know an insight that I think is often overlooked.

00:14:31:05 - 00:14:52:09

Paul: Thing I'm also hearing from you is that businesses I think in the past we used to think about how well I'm promoting a job and you should think yourself lucky that you come to get a chance to work for me. But it's changed now we're here. So now that the candidate is almost auditioning us as business owners and again we're well why should I bring my talent to you. Is that Is that what you're saying in the market.

00:14:53:03 - 00:18:06:11

Mark: Absolutely as recently as yesterday and this morning it's got candidates coming in and rightly so where we're trying to interest them into building their career and adding value to the company and letting them into their own career. And I still hear the horror stories that I hear more horror stories than I care to know from candidates that the reason they're getting out of the business is they're not enjoying it. They're being you know terrified by their bosses or whatever else might be going on of their promises and we'll probably talk about this bit later on their promises are being kept and so they they're really mindful of of what a bad environment is that they don't want to get themselves into another bad environment. So they offered extra cautious because of the experience they've had. So you're absolutely right. It's and this is one of the things I kind of coach my clients to to think of right from the get go you know make sure you're pitching the right thing. I had another client recently that is the hiring manager and the two people that these candidates were going to be working with and therefore have the strongest working relationship and the strongest influence over where their career would go wouldn't go would both potentially going to make themselves unavailable for interview because I were time poor. So I kind of suddenly said Well I don't know that that's going to be doing a lot of value to your brand because at the moment you're one of the attractions I'm talking to these candidates about the the the opportunity to work under good development mentor leaders and the persons come from this background can help them develop their skillset grow grow in the business but they're not going to meet either of those two people in the process are going to meet these other two people that will have very little to do with them in the long term. I don't know that that's going to do us any favours in trying to win that talent. So luckily I said it suddenly enough to directly enough to get an output. So I think these things you're absolutely right. Increasingly probably always been important Paul. But you know I think that you know the old partisan work ethic is quite possibly dead and buried and probably for good reasons. Yeah well that that scenario you played before that you think you just think yourself lucky to get a job and if people were employed with that sort of strategy they would probably get high turnover and a reasonably high level of dissatisfaction with people they were attracting. So whereas the people that are saying look we value we respect it we want to help you develop your career and do everything we can to help you so you can add more and more value to the business and we've gone to the original order. The beautiful win win scenario. So absolutely it is true. And that's why I mean I think getting this right and making sure that all the things that are visible to the general public are in good order and more importantly are aligned is a really essential part because the rest of it you know you can in a marketplace where everyone else is using pretty much the same tools so it's not the tool or how well you use that tool or even how well you craft your ad you know it is more about what's the person going to see when they start checking you out. Because guess what they'll be doing it instantaneously as they're reading the ad and if they come up with something that just seems a little bit too onto them they'll just move on to the next day because there are still opportunities out there.

00:18:06:20 - 00:18:18:06

Paul: If the ad is the first port of call that grabs the attention of the prospective talented candidate for us what what are the keys to producing an ad that's going to be effective.

00:18:18:15 - 00:21:55:13

Mark: Great question really great question because this is where I see the difference between an organization that writes ads on a regular basis as a recruitment agency like like myself and a lot of my colleagues will have a different perspective often to what organizations themselves do. I think the biggest tip here Paul is to keep it simple keep it focused on what the role is going to offer that potential incumbent the person coming in. What's what. Again a little bit like the position description but not using the position description. So why where's the role fit in a little bit about the company. So it's got some sort of perspective of what sector it's in what it's doing and what the purpose of the role is. And then the key activities involved in the role and the outcomes that's going to help drive and then a little bit about well the ideal person will look like this. And so yeah you still got to put put yourself out and say well here's what we think the best person is going to fit into our business. Whether it's you know like if it's a finance role you'd need to have certain roles you need to have a certain qualifications if you're driving forklifts you've got to have certifications you know so you've got. It's okay to ask for what you want but as long as you're aware that you don't give war and peace and that's the biggest thing I've seen with organizations that write their own ads and they might have gone all the hard work of doing a PD which is fantastic position description but then they've just replicated that in an ad and it becomes war and peace long and people switch off way before the end of it because it sounds like you're asking a Superman and it gets long and boring whereas it's much better for me just to show what's the sizzle in this role. What's going to help this role differentiate itself from other roles so what's the personal benefit is a great team environment is a wonderful location to work as a terrific growth prospects or is our fun team environment vision is an industry like hospitality or sports or some I guess that might appeal to a person that's got that bit. What's that personal sizzle that's going to get someone connected to the purpose of this particular business. I think getting yourself clear about that thinking about what is going to attract the right person What's that right person I look for and then there's as I said essentially the purpose what where the role fits what's it what's it going to. What's it going to help to do. And if you have a prime focus for you putting this role out like it might be in business development you want to take the next step up in creating new revenue. You help drive the next generation the next level of growth within the organization. It can be as simple as that but just give people some sort of context as to what their their core initial focus is going to be on what what's the role existing for and he by the way are the key things that you've got to be involved in and that gives you a good perspective and then the next bit of course is that you know what the role what the person ideal person to look for as far as skill sets experience and qualifications. And then just a nice rounding off paragraph so no more than four paragraphs is ample. And then I always like putting on a lot of people don't but I always like putting on the opportunity to have a chat beforehand. Just give me a call because I'd rather see who wants to take the initiative and this is where my strategy comes in. I'd rather no particular would use that example which is used in the sales or business developers and I'm expecting those people got initiative and they used to take initiative. So I've got a saying that goes up along the lines of You'll learn a lot more about a person outside of the interview process how they conduct themselves how they carry themselves what initiative they have what they want in fact mannerisms are like when you ring them without them know you ring them and also the stuff that's when you really start learning about a person. For that reason I'm very happy to put my personal contact number on there so people give me a call and then start distinguished themselves or not. That's okay.

00:21:55:25 - 00:22:56:01

Paul: It's a great strategy and I know that it's served you well and the clients that you service have enjoyed the benefit of that strategy. It's a little kind of moments of truth isn't it that people reveal themselves to when you are doing in an inner structure that you start to see between the lines about okay. This is how they operate this is how they all answer their phone or whether they make as you say show the initiative. That's great insight for us to understand that little clues and I guess this is one of the challenges small business owners may be reluctant to invest in having a professional do the recruitment for them for a whole range of reasons maybe because like in industry there's there's some good and some bad there's people that maybe just a glorified catcalls and people who like yourself who are top professionals at helping to sift through but what do we really need to think about when we're trying to make a decision about whether we want to do this on our own or whether we want to engage somebody to help us.

00:22:56:16 - 00:24:14:14

Mark: Another good point for look do it yourself versus professional I guess get back to the conversation we're having about whether you recognize the need to put someone on and I suppose if it's a lost opportunity just look at lot lost opportunity cost. If you're going to do a decent job of this you need to invest a lot of hours and a lot of thought and a lot of availability a lot of capacity to get this role filled properly because it's not just being available it's about being available at the right time. Now candidate often out of available in the general nine to five times because guess what. They're working in a good job already and that's potentially an ideal candidate because they're demonstrating that they are a good person by having a good job at the moment. One of the questions I'll be asking is is how much time how much blocks in capacity can you put aside to ensure you get to hear from all the people we need to reach out to start searching that working network and all rested now. If that amount of time is going to take you away and be detrimental to your business it might be worth negotiating with with a professional recruiter to come up with a strategy that's going to fit your budget and also allow your business to continue on and not be severely impacted by the task of actually getting someone on to help move your business to the next level. If you don't have a double loss out of it now

00:24:14:18 - 00:24:50:18

Paul: I've seen this many times with entrepreneurs who have made the decision to do it themselves and what they've done is they've rushed the process because they don't have time to dedicate to it. So there's always a price to pay. And I think that sometimes we will look at a dollar figure on a sheet and say wow that's a lot of money. But when you start to really pay attention to the to as you said the lost opportunity and the time impact on us and the consequence of rushing to get through it then there's another price to be paid there when you have to take some responsibility for the fact you probably put the wrong person in the role just for convenience sake.

00:24:50:25 - 00:26:07:30

Mark: The good recruiters spend a lot of time building their networks and getting their structures set up so they can efficiently efficiently deal with it just like business owners are making their business value proposition around doing their stuff better than everybody else. So I think that's that needs to be evaluated and understood. If that recognition comes through yes look past the dollar figure associated with it because if you've got a good recruiter you'll know you'll increase the likelihood of getting it right the first time. If for some reason it doesn't work out and there's always those possibilities to happen. You will have some insurance and some backup in that you'll normally be although negotiate a replacement service if the unforeseen happens and you know strange things happen people have family issues and they're one of the ones I had was the day someone was supposed to start would be the perfect person. This particular person had a milestone birthday that weekend and had an aha moment cathartic turn around the side they were going to completely go off and absolutely different changes so I had nothing to the recruiter nothing to do with the client nothing do with the value proposition. It was just a personal thing that someone said I'm out of here now. You don't have to start all over again. A recruiter will make sure that these people in the pipeline and you can recover that quite quickly. So it's not detrimental to your business needs that you're looking forward to put that person in for anyway.

00:26:08:02 - 00:26:39:15

Paul: So you've already alluded to I guess some of the strategies that you're using through the the ad engaging with the candidate getting them to perhaps respond or ask questions looking for signs of initiative. But when we get to the to the point of making decisions about who we bring in and sit across the table from and have a chat to is there a quick fire expert strategy that used to to sort through candidates to figure out who needs to have the interview and who's not appropriate.

00:26:39:19 - 00:29:46:22

Mark: The quickest way to answer that point is is relativity My experience tells me that working for my clients if they're looking for a sales manager for example they want to put someone in who's got relevant experience as a sales manager. And so the quickest way to screen for that is simply to see well this person is in the territory that you're recruiting for. And increasingly you'll be aware that if you put something out in the portal you'll be getting people from overseas that may or may not even have the right to work here. And even if you might put it in is a question that still apply. So the essential quick check I'll do is is there relativity in their experience bank. So if I'm looking for a sales manager this person has a sales manager or something pretty close to that in their background. They're in the Territory they're presented quite well in the way they're formatted their CV and that is and that's that's essentially as simple as it is in the in the beginning really look for they're in the right territory. They look like we've put together a decent resumé or CV and they've got some relevant experience it matches what my client what the role is needed because you know it's no sense at this particular stage trying to spend too much time if you've got 50 or 100 CVs you're gonna be sitting there imagining Oh okay well that's a bit left field but you know we can make that work and it's not about that. It's about saying well let's let's get the ones that match the closest right. With a bit of tolerance and sometimes people will pop up you go wow I really like the way they started their CV or what they're standing for or the way they've laid it out or that company that they've worked for him notices it's one role removed what I look for that company experience would be really bad. So there's always some tolerance. But essentially try and find the people that fit your brief as closely as possible and you should have enough of those if the ads worked well for you to at least get the ball rolling and that's when you start playing around the edges as you say when you sit down with them and learn a little bit more about them. So it's finding that right balance Paul between you don't really view everybody but you also don't want to cut some good people out but if they've got the basic building blocks of what you need is a core thing. So this is again hark back to a good analogy being about looking for soup man. This is where it's important to say Well here are the core things you might if you started with the premise that if you get 75 percent of your core things that you need as functionality in your role you're probably doing pretty well. So let's focus on what must must haves if this person is is going to be let's use the sales magic expression they've got to at least been in that environment before and ideally in a similar. If you're in service they have been in service or they've been in product or solution you know that sort of thing. So you've got the that a central core thing covered. Terrific. Let's put them aside. Don't spend too much evaluating or imagining what they might be or you can give that a try. These are like his name or her name you know so just look for that core essential thing first without sweating it too much otherwise you get yourself bogged down and that could be. That's a massive time saving.

00:29:46:24 - 00:30:15:15

Paul: I've heard a lot of entrepreneurs over the years complained to me about someone they hired whose CV didn't match with their skill set. So on paper they read as a superstar but in reality when they were put into the role they found that there were lots of holes I guess in their story. Now is it through the interviewing process that we are looking to discover those things.

00:30:15:21 - 00:31:41:27

Mark: Yes absolutely. I always encourage a two step process. So the next step. So you've got the you know you find your first filter if you like preselection which is getting what we just spoke about then the next bit is the phone interview that again is the next if you imagine a hopper place the next series of basic questions you had to go through to see where they'd advance to face to face meeting those sort of questions you'd be willing to sort of understand there is what their level of motivation is why are they leaving the role that they're in at the moment or why they're looking for all they're not in a role. What attracted you to this this opportunity. What have they been doing in the past and then you'd be starting to get without doing a full on full blown interview you would start to get an understanding of if they were saying what they were saying on their paper that they've got something to back it up. For example if I'm looking for someone that needs a reasonable level of Excel expertise I'd say so in your role you've said you work with Excel spreadsheets. Take me through what you do with those spreadsheets so by the way they explain what they do you'll quickly ascertain whether they're a basic user or they have a high level skill set and whether that matches what your expectation the role is. So this is an opportunity to start tapping away again those core essential parts of the role to ensure that they've got their head around that they have got experience to back up what they're saying on a bit of paper because you're right the stats about embellishing see Visa's quite alarming.

00:31:43:13 - 00:31:47:23

Paul: So it probably should be more surprise if you get one that's accurate.

00:31:48:06 - 00:33:03:04

Mark: Yeah yeah yeah. And you do you when you meet there's some people who go well that they're really nice and humble it's a great attribute but in interview everyone sees that their role is to embellish what they've been doing to increase the likelihood of getting the next interview or getting a job whatever it might be. So I think it's that two step process get a basic comfort factor with what the key motivations of a person are why they're looking you know in even basic things like suburbs are living in or because sometimes the suburb they're in is a long way away but then they'll say Oh I'm about to move and I want to move closer to the role I get. Okay so you establish you will those basic parameters that in the long run will impact whether a person stays in a job or not. If a person says Yeah I don't mind travelling an hour and three quarters every day each way to get to my role and she's okay. What's unusual because it's a long way. The alarm bells would be going off for me straight away. So that phone conversation is really essential. Get those those basic drivers of what's what's driving the person and what the essential bits for the role are to see where there's a next level of alignment with, That would justify spending 45 minutes or an hour meeting a person face to face to get that deeper dive in exposure to whether this person really does have the skills attributes and attitudes that you're looking for.

00:33:03:14 - 00:33:26:03

Paul: So when you sit down with a candidate and it is the face to face you they're the clients you're working through. Obviously there's a a comprehensive process that you go through in terms of the questions that you're asking. You're happy to share one or two of those that I guess critical questions that you'd ask in a live interview environment for somebody who's made it to that stage.

00:33:26:18 - 00:34:49:03

Mark: You probably even better pull it. It's the context of behavioral interviewing it's probably more even more important to understand. So to put that together. What that basically means is the thing I observe and hear back from my teammates when I meet with clients the biggest mistake that the client's hiring directly will potentially come up across is talking too much about their business and not actually drilling down and probing to get a closer understanding of what this person's capability and drivers are. So the type of question that I'd be encouraging to ask is the two or three really key must have competencies that you want to hire for or attitudes throw them in as well. And then using a very loose behavioral interviewing strategy which essentially means you're looking to see to understand what actions this person is actually taken in a role prior. And this is where you'll understand whether the person has the depth of skill that matches what they say on their bit of paper. It's called probing a lot of questions that I often get asked just Are you okay or you look like you've done that pretty well you handle it okay. Oh yeah yeah I'm good with it. Oh good. Okay well next you know we're not learning anything there. So yeah it would be you know and I want people to trot this out like Excel it sounds a bit trite but it.

00:34:49:12 - 00:36:44:30

Mark: So if this particular working with Excel for example is is an important aspect of the role of the function it's got it's basically will can you tell me a time when you needed to actually interact with these spreadsheets. Where was it. What did you do and what was the outcome. Okay so the situation or the circumstance the action you took and the result they got from it. Okay so I can remember in this car C.A.R. circumstance action result. And that's pretty important if you're asking questions whatever the question is and you've got a mind around that you don't have to keep trotting out there. Can you tell me of farming to do that all sound pretty boring but if you've got that in your mind you want to find out what the situation was of a circumstance what the action was they took and what the result was you'll get deeper understanding of how eloquent that person is around that that skill set and what they actually did because sometimes and this is where you can break that that the misunderstanding or the misinterpretation of what's said on a CV and what is actually really reality it could be a nice thing you know involved in advanced analysis via Excel spreadsheets for financial reporting terrific looks great. Oh great that's just what we do. But if you probe through what is the situation where was the company I was actually the situation was that success was 10 years ago to do that. Okay right. And what did you do. Well you know I was part of that team did it are terrific. So don't be satisfied with that probe and I will. Okay. Your partner did it. So what was the particular action that you took. Now I'm not trying to be too pedantic or you're just trying to get to the core essence to stop people talk about what we did this or we did that. Okay that's great to see as a team what you're gonna. But what was your particular part of that puzzle. Do you have a silly example for the fun of it yeah. Were you making cups of tea to bring into the team to keep them working for you actually the brains trust behind designing the spreadsheet and orchestrating the formulas that drove the answers.

00:36:45:15 - 00:38:50:24

Mark: There's an in between is a gulf of difference that's a determine whether someone actually has got that skill set or they've just wow a lot of it wasted in a in a thing and it's really really easy but then normally the thing will hold people back is I be at pains in the backside and I get that they might never have known that I was interviewing. That's not what they do on a day to day basis I get that as well. But if you just get over that mindset of you don't want to be necessarily you don't want to go for a chat just to say oh we want them to like we want them to respect us we want them to know that you're going to be thorough you're really you're investing really heavily in your business you want to get the right person so you know since you're not going to do anyone a favour if you hire the person who's making the cups of tea for the people who made the spreadsheets when you really need the person that was making this spreadsheet. And if you're hold yourself back from asking that next question is you don't come across as being too whatever get over it. Yeah you've got it you owe it to yourself and your business and to the person that person is on go inside. Thought you can make cups of tea for the people making speeches. You expect me to actually come up with a man. That's not. No that's that's a mindset thing and that's where you know offloaded to professionals. They worry about that is an advantage but if you do which you are doing yourself that's when you go into those interviews a mindset or a probe as deep as I need you in the areas that are relevant. It doesn't mean you still can't have a nice chat. And I love what they're about. Well I like footy teams and my soul suffers. If you're hiring in the Melbourne territory for example very crazy about AFL football. Great report break it builds relationships with team members. Terrific. You still have all that sort of stuff. But for those core things that are absolute must have for the role. You've got to be able to at least have the questions around it about the three or four core things that we really need to find out at some depth about and then ask them questions that elicit the answers about with that situation. Was it circumstance was what actions they actually took. Keep asking keep digging deeper. Why. Why. So what did you do what you can to find what is and what was the outcome of that and what was the result of that. That will get you a long way towards getting a much better outcome or at least a clearer picture and a real authentic picture of what that person's skill set is.

00:38:51:06 - 00:39:16:14

Paul: Love it. So we've got we've got the the CAR acronym So the circumstance action results great thing for everyone to pay attention to and keep in mind when we are next recruiting our next superstar for our business. So let's assume we've gone through the process we've identified the person we want. We've done that assuming the next step is check with the referees that everything that we've heard is solid yep yep yeah.

00:39:16:17 - 00:42:05:06

Mark: And that's again that's that's something I would encourage people to spend time with and again probe referees are normally selected because they are most likely to give a favourable response and you know not too often can put forward a referee that's to say bad things about it so you can kind of do that. But that's not what you want to hear. You want to hear it real. And so for me when I do it it's always about building a better rapport and showing respect and appreciation to that referee for donating their time and insights and reinforcing it is this is not just a rubber rubber stamping exercise. This is a really important part of the process that will help make sure this person is going to be potentially fitted into a subject to suit them and suit the company. And so you know I really want I want to spend some time with the referees. I always make sure when I ring is it setting up the opportunity I give them advance notice of who I am. So if there on Linkedin you know I'll send them a Linkedin invite so they're not hearing from the cold. Ideally I'd like the candidate also to let them know exactly who's potentially going to call them. So do everything that I can. And that's what I'm encouraging people to do if they do it by themselves. Build up that relationship prior to it so you get as good a playing field as possible with that person. It's got the right time for you. It's got the capacity and is and is not side tracked. So if someone picks up an old and I know I can hear their attentively busy I say look we don't need do this now what's the time suit you better because I want to get I don't want just get this done and rubber stamp I want to get as much information as I can. And some of the questions I used to find the best things out are is to help this potential client. How did you manage and what sort of tips would you give to two that I could pass on to an employer and that's when you often find out some of the the nuances of the person. OK. And you know and I always go out of my way to say well look you know it's clear you are there you going to provide some sort of feedback but you know that may may or may not be what we need is a where we where is the areas for development so we can either be aware of it cognisant of it keep it going or what sort of mentoring did you need to do to help this person get where it's at. And all that sort of stuff. So I suppose the essence is yes absolutely important. Spend the time set up that relationship as best you can. So you get a really good authentic response and that's what we're really after. While I love it when I get to the end and people say well gee we should keep in touch I'd love to. Oh yeah great. That's terrific. By the way let your client know that if they want to ask me some more questions down the track. Feel free to ring me given you know that's a of relationship I want to build up that they've got to really stand behind this person not just give the You know yes he turned he or she turned up on time nobody notices. Baa baa baa. You know I really want to find out what that person really is like in the field.

00:42:05:21 - 00:42:58:18

Paul: It's really clear and the coming through loud and clear that your skill and ability the power of the questions that you ask that really reveal to you so much that most people aren't asking and therefore they're just sort of glossing over the surface is a testament to to just why having someone like you in their corner to help hire a star performer for their business is so worthwhile. But we're just about at time. But I want to. Before we finish to think about the onboarding process that we've found champion that we want to bring into our business the person who's going to help us take our business to the next level. So what's some of the keys to making sure that that person can fulfill the roles that we've hoped that they will for us. How do we ensure that they're going to be a success.

00:42:58:21 - 00:44:41:10

Mark: Yeah really good question Paul. One of the things I want to emphasize. Be aware of during the period we are courting this this person be mindful of the promising nature of your language. What are you promising this person. Okay. Because when it really comes down to syntax tax what you've decided this person this talent is exactly what we need. And the temptation is that they may have may or may not have other roles on it. At times you can kind of pull out all stops and I'm gonna promise the world to get this personal cross a line and there will be job done. And the reason I say that is that 60 per cent of people leave organizations and roles might be higher because of what is called a psychological contract that is broken. So the psychological contract is just what I was talking about these things that were inferred or promised during interview process or during onboarding that don't get delivered in 3 6 9 12 months time. People go they're disillusioned. They promised me the world and they give me squat diddly. So I think that fits in nicely with how the on board people properly. If you if you have over promised over shot doesn't matter how good a job you do of onboarding because you can't deliver what you promised that person then it might be as simple as the option of working from home once a month or free Tim Tams on Friday or whatever it is personal growth career challenge the opportunity to do diversity of roles so you can grow your career and you experience base whatever it is you're giving away at the interview that becomes almost sometimes even more powerful than the physical employment contract you have psychological contract. Keep people in play if you will. If you if you deliver on it that makes sense Paul.

00:44:41:28 - 00:45:31:00

Paul: Yeah. Well as I read it if you're using something to entice somebody in and then you fail to deliver on that you can say clearly why the person is going to become disillusioned very quickly with the broken promise and therefore I can say that it could easily then spin into well then and do this for me. So why should I do this for them. Exactly. Create a rod for our own back. So that now that makes perfect sense and something you know I'm really thrilled that you mentioned that cause I think understanding the psychological contract is a really important aspect for all of us to pay attention. Yes. So this last part of it I guess this onboarding then you know if we if we've done that carefully and we haven't over promised and under delivered but done it well what are some of the keys to making sure that we're going to set up new a new star recruit for success.

00:45:31:14 - 00:49:27:17

Mark: Well I think the essence of it is by people to feel part of the scene as quickly as possible. So I think make people feel welcome is absolutely what you're what you're shooting for for the first week or month you know just get people feel like they're part of the scene that they're involved in you know not sort of set it aside like oh yeah we'll look we'll show you how to do that later or we'll introduce but the key people next week or was let you said desk and read the manuals for the first week. No. Make them feel welcome. Get them interacting with their team members team members around with their stakeholders with their customers. Get them out on side. That's your business. Get them feeling as much as part of fabric as your organization at the beginning and when you're introducing the people edify them say positive things this is why we've brought this person on because that the background here has got a really add value to our business can make it easier to work with as a team we're going to deliver more at same results for our clients. So give them that strong sense of. God you know I mean something here. I'm important so I think those sort of things are invaluable. It's also an opportunity for you to reinforce here's the direction. So. So if you're making people feel welcome it can be as simple as you know have a morning tea or a routine lunch first day make sure they know where their facilities are the basic things. If they are going out on the road make sure they get business cards all their tools are trained and ready. There's a desk is a phone these are whatever else comes with the role. There's been some damage. It's an easy demonstration. There's been some forethought put into preparing and welcoming this person you know a board member go into different different places even a client once, I walked  in the foyer and it's got a a TV screen going. Welcome Mark Bloodworth, you know. Looking forward to meeting with you. Well that's that's cool. Just demonstrates the value. Yes I'd have the welcome the LCD TV screen going or anything but some demonstration that yeah we've organized a lunch or a little cup of tea together and some muffins and I'll get you in and have a little informal chat with people and get your cheering around and you know getting the freedom and understand where their piece of the puzzle is. So this is where all your good work on positions keeps you pays off. Say he's clearly what the role is here's where you fit in it. And here is the induction training program. I go for the first week's gonna be about settling meaning Team Team people second ones gonna be ensuring you understand our systems and process and I'm not saying this is mandatory but as an example demonstrate you've got a well thought through laid out who's gonna be responsible for that element of your induction. That element of your training. Mix it up so it's not just too long you don't know if someone in there for five days really manuals. Mix it up with a quiet visit and get them up and about and feeling like you're part of the fabric of the organization as early as practicable as they are. They're hired to do to be a brain surgeon. Get them operating on day one. But you can get them meeting the patients and checking out their bedside manner and showing and demonstrating how you as an organization interact with your client. That's really says nice subtlety in there that you're you're helping train by doing and showing people how you interact with your people so I think you know that's well thought out plan some sort of structure but a real emphasis on building relationships within the business and with that outside the business they're going to be pivotal for this person to be successful so they also feel comfortable going to anyone in the business they need to get some help. Hey the boss explained this to me. I've come across this I know I had to do it. How can I do that if I don't even know who they're supposed to be dealing with. I'll be sitting there getting potentially frustrated and annoyed with themselves and trying to make more mistakes so having that fabric of who is who you go to. Here's what you do. We expect and sending a real clear picture of what your organization stands for is the value so spending time with that person to help them understand what's important behaviours and habits that people in our business. Here's how we talk to each other here's a process that we run through.

00:49:43:26 - 00:50:48:19

Paul: Yes I really modeling the behavior that we want to say and not sort of pointing somebody to a corner to a desk and a computer and saying good luck off you go. Yes he's probably going to ensure and again it's a case that often small business owners they're trying to operate lean they're moving fast and sometimes I move so fast that they leave the person behind and then get frustrated with them expecting them to have knowledge about it. That's when I hired you for your supposed to know all this. We still need to give people the chance to get their feet under the desk as it were and adapt to the new environment. Absolutely. So we've come a fantastic grand we've shared some brilliant insights and given us lots of clues about how we can become much more effective at recruiting somebody for our business and making sure that it's a good fit and that they will be able to perform well. Now I'm sure that many people would be interested mark in learning more about the work you do how they could follow you connect with you. So what are the best ways or way for people to connect with you out there.

00:50:48:22 - 00:51:33:01

Mark: Yeah yeah great. Look I'm reasonably active on LinkedIn a professional network. If you're on there just looking at Mark Bloodworth Lifeblood Performance shoot be an invite invited I'll accept it and don't just leave it at an invite. If you've got a question shoot me a question as well to say Hey just listen to Paul's podcast great value really really like know a little bit more about that. It should be message I'm very happy to entertain those sort of conversations to support all the good people in your world Paul. So now LinkedIn jump on my Web site like lifebloodperformance.com. You see a little bit more information about some of the work I do particularly in the leadership space as well and gives you methods to connect with me as well via email and what have you. So but maybe maybe even linked into good good starting point Paul.

00:51:34:03 - 00:51:54:07

Paul: Brilliant. And I think that we obviously have covered great ground in terms of the recruitment but I know that you're you're again at then helping leaders to really get the best out of their people and develop really high performing teams. I will. We'll have to schedule a time to get you back on and have another conversation about that another day.

00:51:54:26 - 00:52:12:09

Mark: That'd be awesome. Paul I always enjoy talking to you you have a gift in getting out the right amount of information that you know your client base so well that's going to help you your clients and your network out. So would you make this such a pleasurable experience but I would do it at the drop of a hat any time. Thanks Mate.

00:52:12:11 - 00:52:16:30

Paul: Good on you. I really appreciate you being with me. And and look forward to catching up with you soon.

00:52:17:15 - 00:53:50:05

Paul: So is it time for you to hire a superstar to help you grow your business is it time for you to start to handball some of the things that are not the real moneymakers of your business. They're important they need to get done but they will be best served the business will be best served if you gave them to somebody else to do for you so that you could really focus in on the things that are going to take your business forward. Well it is that time if it's time for you to start growing your business and you need somebody to help you do that then. I would certainly encourage you to think about getting a professional in your corner someone like Mark who's a master at finding talent and helping them be onboarded into a company successfully. I think there's no doubt that one of the reasons that many people struggle with their employment is because they're so busy running their business. I try to do it themselves and they just don't have the time and the space to dedicate to it to do the job properly and therefore they end up with somebody who's not a great fit for their business. If you want to do it well I suggest you get us expert in your corner and you really invest into getting a great person in your business and using a talented person to help you do that. So I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. I certainly was taking lots of notes. I've known Mark for a long time but I always learn when he speaks so I hope you also got lots of value from this session. And I'll look forward to joining you next week with another episode of the marketers club podcast. So until we speak again I wish you nothing but the best of luck with your business. But much more importantly with your lives. Take care. Bye for now.